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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Quote:

thisisridic wrote:
Quote:

brobison wrote:
Quote:

emperorchaz wrote:
OK if he gets fired, who are you going to get that would be better?


I would probably look for someone that didn't build his whole team around one player and would actually have 3 QBs ready to play.

Maybe someone that when they played an FCS team would try and see what his backup QB could do. Not put him in with 45 seconds left to hand off and kneel down.

Just one of many of my requirements.

I assure you there is someone out there better than Holgy. Probably a number out there that isn't as good but if you think that Holgy is:

A. The pinnacle of coaching talent, or
B. We can't hire anyone else better

that is the kind of thinking that will never build a winner.


I really don't think Holgorsen has built his entire team around 1 player. I just don't understand this logic some of our fans seem to apply when criticizing the coaching staff and the lack of QB talent. It is as if people think WVU is some Mecca for QB talent and that 2-3 blue chip prospects are lining up to come play here every recruiting cycle, thus affording this team the luxury of having 3 highly capable back-ups waiting for the guy ahead of them to go down.

As it stands right now we have a potential Heisman candidate QB as the clear cut starter, a former 4-star QB backing him up and another 4-star incoming Freshman. For the first time since Jarret Brown and Geno Smith were on the roster together has WVU had this much QB depth.

I also find it interesting that you used Clemson as your example of QB stability. They have a QB that has already left the program and are likely going to be a 2-QB system heading into the season, and we all know how well 2 QB rotations work. Also, rumors are already out there that if Kelly Bryant does not win the job he may also transfer out, leaving them with 1 QB.


I really try to be optimistic but you take optimism to the next level.

While you might believe he didn't build the team around one player.....see you can recruit 25 receivers that are 4 star players but when you only have ONE guy that can get them the ball you effectively make your offense a one player system. It's like building a chain you can build a whole chain from 1 inch thick links but if you insert one 1/2 inch link you have a half inch chain and you wasted your time with the others.

Interestingly enough....none of your musings have happened. I have stated things which have happened in the past or are happening right now. Your reply is well.....next year.....

I think most of us are sick of next year. I see a guy that has excellent talent and I know he is being touted as a Heisman frontrunner but I don't really see it. There is nothing I have seen that says Heisman to me but that is just me. ANYONE's shot at a Heisman is remote I understand but I don't think I see the ability to be consistent enough to win the trophy.

As for the rest of the guys....they haven't done anything to this point in time.

Maybe we do have the deepest QB position in since Geno. All I am asking for is a quality backup that doesn't immediately have his own team mates calling up Vegas to bet against the team and maybe a third ACTUAL body to put back there. I don't think that is excessive given the guy has been here for 7 years!!!!! That is practically 2 FULL recruiting classes!

As for no-one wants to come here that is complete BS! We have had many great QBs over the years. QBs that have played NFL football. We have had some pretty good backups that never started for us but did a good job.......and I have never, until this past December ever heard a WVU coach say we didn't have a guy who could even be sent out on the field to take a snap.

You give a guy a chance to play and he will come here. You don't really need a 4 star back up. You can have a 2 or three star guy as your back-up. But he's not coming here if he never get's a chance to play. Who WOULD?!

Not asking for two QB system but when we're up by 42 points on Kansas....put the backup in the game. Put the backup in the game when you are down 56-10 to Oklahoma. Let's see what he has. Chugs never got into the game with much over 4 or 5 minutes left and then was only allowed to hand the ball off.

If you treat your QBs like that then...yes...they are going to leave. I don't blame them. I would rather go to FCS and play than for WVU to sit on the bench. We rotate MANY, MANY other positions there is no reason that QB can't be rotated occasionally.

Oklahoma sat Mayfield against us and their BACKUP scored in two plays. TWO PLAYS!!!! Not asking for that but our backup wasn't able to complete a pass to his dad in the back yard let alone during a game.

As for Clemson, maybe they will leave....maybe they won't. Maybe they will play two, maybe one will win the job. But one has to WIN the job you can't just name one if they really are that close. I don't know of any team that isn't for that kind of competition. if you have two great QBs you need to get two great QBs on the field. But regardless of that....Swinney has won a NC so I think he can be trusted to know whether they have a QB. Two QB systems that fail are two QB systems that have two crappy QBs that can't win the job.

I think it is hilarious that one would poo-poo Clemson when they have been in the playoffs for the last 3 years. When was the last time we were even discussed about being IN the playoffs.

Posted on: 5/23 4:03 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
1/17/2011 8:42 pm
Posts: 1102
FWIW...in Coaching hires, as with any job opening, the volume of dead Presidents always wins.

Posted on: 5/23 5:53 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Pitt Hater
Joined:
10/21/2011 9:47 pm
From Richmond, Va
Posts: 1695
Quote:

brobison wrote:
Quote:

thisisridic wrote:
Quote:

brobison wrote:
Quote:

emperorchaz wrote:
OK if he gets fired, who are you going to get that would be better?


I would probably look for someone that didn't build his whole team around one player and would actually have 3 QBs ready to play.

Maybe someone that when they played an FCS team would try and see what his backup QB could do. Not put him in with 45 seconds left to hand off and kneel down.

Just one of many of my requirements.

I assure you there is someone out there better than Holgy. Probably a number out there that isn't as good but if you think that Holgy is:

A. The pinnacle of coaching talent, or
B. We can't hire anyone else better

that is the kind of thinking that will never build a winner.


I really don't think Holgorsen has built his entire team around 1 player. I just don't understand this logic some of our fans seem to apply when criticizing the coaching staff and the lack of QB talent. It is as if people think WVU is some Mecca for QB talent and that 2-3 blue chip prospects are lining up to come play here every recruiting cycle, thus affording this team the luxury of having 3 highly capable back-ups waiting for the guy ahead of them to go down.

As it stands right now we have a potential Heisman candidate QB as the clear cut starter, a former 4-star QB backing him up and another 4-star incoming Freshman. For the first time since Jarret Brown and Geno Smith were on the roster together has WVU had this much QB depth.

I also find it interesting that you used Clemson as your example of QB stability. They have a QB that has already left the program and are likely going to be a 2-QB system heading into the season, and we all know how well 2 QB rotations work. Also, rumors are already out there that if Kelly Bryant does not win the job he may also transfer out, leaving them with 1 QB.


I really try to be optimistic but you take optimism to the next level.

While you might believe he didn't build the team around one player.....see you can recruit 25 receivers that are 4 star players but when you only have ONE guy that can get them the ball you effectively make your offense a one player system. It's like building a chain you can build a whole chain from 1 inch thick links but if you insert one 1/2 inch link you have a half inch chain and you wasted your time with the others.

Interestingly enough....none of your musings have happened. I have stated things which have happened in the past or are happening right now. Your reply is well.....next year.....

I think most of us are sick of next year. I see a guy that has excellent talent and I know he is being touted as a Heisman frontrunner but I don't really see it. There is nothing I have seen that says Heisman to me but that is just me. ANYONE's shot at a Heisman is remote I understand but I don't think I see the ability to be consistent enough to win the trophy.

As for the rest of the guys....they haven't done anything to this point in time.

Maybe we do have the deepest QB position in since Geno. All I am asking for is a quality backup that doesn't immediately have his own team mates calling up Vegas to bet against the team and maybe a third ACTUAL body to put back there. I don't think that is excessive given the guy has been here for 7 years!!!!! That is practically 2 FULL recruiting classes!

As for no-one wants to come here that is complete BS! We have had many great QBs over the years. QBs that have played NFL football. We have had some pretty good backups that never started for us but did a good job.......and I have never, until this past December ever heard a WVU coach say we didn't have a guy who could even be sent out on the field to take a snap.

You give a guy a chance to play and he will come here. You don't really need a 4 star back up. You can have a 2 or three star guy as your back-up. But he's not coming here if he never get's a chance to play. Who WOULD?!

Not asking for two QB system but when we're up by 42 points on Kansas....put the backup in the game. Put the backup in the game when you are down 56-10 to Oklahoma. Let's see what he has. Chugs never got into the game with much over 4 or 5 minutes left and then was only allowed to hand the ball off.

If you treat your QBs like that then...yes...they are going to leave. I don't blame them. I would rather go to FCS and play than for WVU to sit on the bench. We rotate MANY, MANY other positions there is no reason that QB can't be rotated occasionally.

Oklahoma sat Mayfield against us and their BACKUP scored in two plays. TWO PLAYS!!!! Not asking for that but our backup wasn't able to complete a pass to his dad in the back yard let alone during a game.

As for Clemson, maybe they will leave....maybe they won't. Maybe they will play two, maybe one will win the job. But one has to WIN the job you can't just name one if they really are that close. I don't know of any team that isn't for that kind of competition. if you have two great QBs you need to get two great QBs on the field. But regardless of that....Swinney has won a NC so I think he can be trusted to know whether they have a QB. Two QB systems that fail are two QB systems that have two crappy QBs that can't win the job.

I think it is hilarious that one would poo-poo Clemson when they have been in the playoffs for the last 3 years. When was the last time we were even discussed about being IN the playoffs.


I'm not overly optimistic, just realistic.

If Kids wanted to come to Morgantown WVU would be winning more games. WVU is not a top destination for top talent from Texas, California, Florida and the rest of the deep south, which is where the vast majority of top players come from. It is not as if Holgorsen and the rest of the coaches have been actively not recruiting top players, they just chose to go to Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, OU, et al.

Next year? I'm talking about this year, as that is what is about to happen. This team is about to roll out a former 5-star QB and two former 4-stars on the roster.

I don't give a flying-**** what you think about Will Grier or either of the other two QB's behind him, he was highly rated in high school, went 6-0 at Florida and led WVU to a 7-3 record with a terrible defense last year before getting hurt. The kid is a stud and pretty much everyone who has watched him play sees what I see, except for you obviously. I'm not saying he will win a Heisman or be drafted #1 overall, but a whole hell of a lot of people have him on their list to win a Heisman and be the best QB in the draft. You can sit around bitching and waiting for someone better to play for WVU, I'll enjoy the next 12-15 game he has left here.

What is this whole "you don't really need 4 star back up" bullshit you just wrote? Earlier you were complaining that WVU doesn't have three 5-star QB's like Clemson battling it out, now you seem to think 2-star QB's will cut it? You can't have it both ways just to support you argument. Also, thanks for supporting my position that multiple top level QB's wouldn't come to a program where they would not play. Teams all across the NCAA are having that problem, it is why so many QB's are transferring.

What Kansas game did you watch? Kansas was in the game until late, WVU was never up 42. Had Holgorsen pulled Grier for Chugs WVU likely looses that game. And what does it mater that Kylar Murray scored in two plays? All that proves is that WVU's defense blew a big fat one last year.

Are you really advocating a QB rotation? Wow, just wow.

I wasn't shitting on Clemson's achievements, you are the one who brought them up as an example of some pinnacle of QB success, but outside of Deshaun Watson they have been mediocre at best especially last year. All I did was point out that they are having issues themselves and even a national championship doesn't mean you have a secure QB situation.

Posted on: 5/23 11:50 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Quote:

thisisridic wrote:
Quote:

brobison wrote:
Quote:

thisisridic wrote:
Quote:

brobison wrote:
Quote:

emperorchaz wrote:
OK if he gets fired, who are you going to get that would be better?


I would probably look for someone that didn't build his whole team around one player and would actually have 3 QBs ready to play.

Maybe someone that when they played an FCS team would try and see what his backup QB could do. Not put him in with 45 seconds left to hand off and kneel down.

Just one of many of my requirements.

I assure you there is someone out there better than Holgy. Probably a number out there that isn't as good but if you think that Holgy is:

A. The pinnacle of coaching talent, or
B. We can't hire anyone else better

that is the kind of thinking that will never build a winner.


I really don't think Holgorsen has built his entire team around 1 player. I just don't understand this logic some of our fans seem to apply when criticizing the coaching staff and the lack of QB talent. It is as if people think WVU is some Mecca for QB talent and that 2-3 blue chip prospects are lining up to come play here every recruiting cycle, thus affording this team the luxury of having 3 highly capable back-ups waiting for the guy ahead of them to go down.

As it stands right now we have a potential Heisman candidate QB as the clear cut starter, a former 4-star QB backing him up and another 4-star incoming Freshman. For the first time since Jarret Brown and Geno Smith were on the roster together has WVU had this much QB depth.

I also find it interesting that you used Clemson as your example of QB stability. They have a QB that has already left the program and are likely going to be a 2-QB system heading into the season, and we all know how well 2 QB rotations work. Also, rumors are already out there that if Kelly Bryant does not win the job he may also transfer out, leaving them with 1 QB.


I really try to be optimistic but you take optimism to the next level.

While you might believe he didn't build the team around one player.....see you can recruit 25 receivers that are 4 star players but when you only have ONE guy that can get them the ball you effectively make your offense a one player system. It's like building a chain you can build a whole chain from 1 inch thick links but if you insert one 1/2 inch link you have a half inch chain and you wasted your time with the others.

Interestingly enough....none of your musings have happened. I have stated things which have happened in the past or are happening right now. Your reply is well.....next year.....

I think most of us are sick of next year. I see a guy that has excellent talent and I know he is being touted as a Heisman frontrunner but I don't really see it. There is nothing I have seen that says Heisman to me but that is just me. ANYONE's shot at a Heisman is remote I understand but I don't think I see the ability to be consistent enough to win the trophy.

As for the rest of the guys....they haven't done anything to this point in time.

Maybe we do have the deepest QB position in since Geno. All I am asking for is a quality backup that doesn't immediately have his own team mates calling up Vegas to bet against the team and maybe a third ACTUAL body to put back there. I don't think that is excessive given the guy has been here for 7 years!!!!! That is practically 2 FULL recruiting classes!

As for no-one wants to come here that is complete BS! We have had many great QBs over the years. QBs that have played NFL football. We have had some pretty good backups that never started for us but did a good job.......and I have never, until this past December ever heard a WVU coach say we didn't have a guy who could even be sent out on the field to take a snap.

You give a guy a chance to play and he will come here. You don't really need a 4 star back up. You can have a 2 or three star guy as your back-up. But he's not coming here if he never get's a chance to play. Who WOULD?!

Not asking for two QB system but when we're up by 42 points on Kansas....put the backup in the game. Put the backup in the game when you are down 56-10 to Oklahoma. Let's see what he has. Chugs never got into the game with much over 4 or 5 minutes left and then was only allowed to hand the ball off.

If you treat your QBs like that then...yes...they are going to leave. I don't blame them. I would rather go to FCS and play than for WVU to sit on the bench. We rotate MANY, MANY other positions there is no reason that QB can't be rotated occasionally.

Oklahoma sat Mayfield against us and their BACKUP scored in two plays. TWO PLAYS!!!! Not asking for that but our backup wasn't able to complete a pass to his dad in the back yard let alone during a game.

As for Clemson, maybe they will leave....maybe they won't. Maybe they will play two, maybe one will win the job. But one has to WIN the job you can't just name one if they really are that close. I don't know of any team that isn't for that kind of competition. if you have two great QBs you need to get two great QBs on the field. But regardless of that....Swinney has won a NC so I think he can be trusted to know whether they have a QB. Two QB systems that fail are two QB systems that have two crappy QBs that can't win the job.

I think it is hilarious that one would poo-poo Clemson when they have been in the playoffs for the last 3 years. When was the last time we were even discussed about being IN the playoffs.


I'm not overly optimistic, just realistic.

If Kids wanted to come to Morgantown WVU would be winning more games. WVU is not a top destination for top talent from Texas, California, Florida and the rest of the deep south, which is where the vast majority of top players come from. It is not as if Holgorsen and the rest of the coaches have been actively not recruiting top players, they just chose to go to Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, OU, et al.

Next year? I'm talking about this year, as that is what is about to happen. This team is about to roll out a former 5-star QB and two former 4-stars on the roster.

I don't give a flying-**** what you think about Will Grier or either of the other two QB's behind him, he was highly rated in high school, went 6-0 at Florida and led WVU to a 7-3 record with a terrible defense last year before getting hurt. The kid is a stud and pretty much everyone who has watched him play sees what I see, except for you obviously. I'm not saying he will win a Heisman or be drafted #1 overall, but a whole hell of a lot of people have him on their list to win a Heisman and be the best QB in the draft. You can sit around bitching and waiting for someone better to play for WVU, I'll enjoy the next 12-15 game he has left here.

What is this whole "you don't really need 4 star back up" bullshit you just wrote? Earlier you were complaining that WVU doesn't have three 5-star QB's like Clemson battling it out, now you seem to think 2-star QB's will cut it? You can't have it both ways just to support you argument. Also, thanks for supporting my position that multiple top level QB's wouldn't come to a program where they would not play. Teams all across the NCAA are having that problem, it is why so many QB's are transferring.

What Kansas game did you watch? Kansas was in the game until late, WVU was never up 42. Had Holgorsen pulled Grier for Chugs WVU likely looses that game. And what does it mater that Kylar Murray scored in two plays? All that proves is that WVU's defense blew a big fat one last year.

Are you really advocating a QB rotation? Wow, just wow.

I wasn't shitting on Clemson's achievements, you are the one who brought them up as an example of some pinnacle of QB success, but outside of Deshaun Watson they have been mediocre at best especially last year. All I did was point out that they are having issues themselves and even a national championship doesn't mean you have a secure QB situation.


Apparently, from this diatribe, you didn't bother to read anything I wrote. On almost ALL of the points you make I never stated any of those things. So I won't bother in responding any more to this.

1. I never said that Grier wasn't any good. I just stated that I don't see him as a Heisman candidate for a number of reasons. I was at the Virginia Tech game and watched a QB struggle through the first half.....mightily. I know from watching other games that he struggled at times against average teams in the Big 12 for a quarter or more. You can't win the Heisman that way. If you take a quarter off you will be out of the running.

2. I never stated I wanted multiple 5-star QBs. I simply picked a program that we clearly dominated when Holgy came in to show where they are now and contrasted that with a program that couldn't even field a body as a backup at the end of the season...all the time under this coach.

3. I CLEARLY stated that I just wanted a serviceable back-up and a third string QB. Not asking for multiple hall-of-famers on the same team. A body that doesn't require us to snap the ball to a running back!

4. We were up 35-13 at halftime. That is 22 at the half. Then our offense decided to take the third quarter off. See #1 above. I am pretty sure we could have put up a goose egg with Chugs as easily as we could have put up a goose egg with Grier......oh and that sound you heard after that goose egg against Kansas was the sportswriters erasing their vote for Grier and voting for someone else. Why do you seem to think that won't happen this year? It happened MORE than twice last year.

5. About the two QBs.....why do you seem to think that you can't have two QBs? We can run multiple receivers out there but apparently timing doesn't matter with them until you change the QB....then suddenly.....holy hell our timing is off....give me a break! There have been quite a few QB duos over time that have won games. As I say.....if you have 2 QBs that suck then, yes, it won't work. But you know what? If you pick one, it still won't work. Because they suck.

You give me Payton Manning, Dan Fouts, and John Elway and I will have three QBs share time. I'll run those bastards in on separate plays in the same series.....and I will win a hell of a lot of games. It all depends on who your multiple QBs are. If I had two 5-star QBs their asses would find their way on the field every game.....hell I might run them out there on the same play.

Posted on: 5/24 9:18 am
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
11/30/2013 3:05 pm
Posts: 908
I'll kind of bite on this debate brobison, I definitely get what you're saying and yes it would be great to have serviceable back ups, and being the program we are, it's embarrassing that we didn't really have another option last year, it's not like we're some FCS team, we're in a Power 5 conference. I completely agree there, but for some of the arguments:

1. As for not seeing Grier as a Heisman contender because a couple quarter's were off, how much of that stems from Grier itself, and how much stems from Spavital's play-calling?? In the Kansas game, after half time the first drive went 6 plays 23 yards, on the first downs we threw on first, then ran with McKoy, and Grier completed another pass for the first down on 3rd, the next set of downs we ran McKoy twice and then Grier and Sills couldn't hook up, Kansas gets it, comes down and scores, we 3 plays for 13 yards with an interception, then next possession run it with Crawford a few times, etc. I think you see where I'm going, the play-calling was pretty questionable at times, and though it seems balanced, it didn't seem like we were balanced, and other times other teams were eating out the clock running like mad men on our defense.

I think Grier has all the intangibles to win the Heisman, he makes the throws like Geno did in his time, he has a good pocket presence, and knows how to feel pressure, it's not like he has weird mechanics or anything. In his FIRST full year under center he threw for 3,490 yards, with 34 TDs and 12 INTs completing 64.5% of his passes.

For reference, let's choose Trickett who was pretty servicable and also a transfer that had 2 years in the system: Trickett played 8 games and had 1,605 yards passing, 7 TDs and 7 INTs at 52.8%, BUT in his second year, Trickett in 11 threw for 3,285 with 18TDs and 10 INTs at 67.1%; the improvement was massive; hell even Skylar Howard improved 7% in completion, 200 yards, and had 4 less INTs. It's proven QB's grow in their second year under Dana, and so it'd be silly to think Grier regresses. I think he had to knock off some rust of being almost 2 years without playing a meaningful football game against VT, and he really wasn't THAT bad against them.

2. I think not having a Spring Game hurts in the "serviceable QB" department for us. I would have loved to see what Allison, Lowe, etc. could have done, and I think it might have helped ease some doubts. Even though it's unacceptable to not have a back-up QB, we've had some of the worst luck in the injuries/transfer departments.

Look at Cody Saunders (4* out of high school), he had a very solid spring game, pretty sure he had a couple TD passes, no INTs and there was some optimism around this program until a injury cut his career short. Crest never developed, Ford Childress transferred out, we didn't have any QB stability. I don't necessarily think it's for a lack of recruiting, just some **** luck. Our defense has also gone through those swings of **** luck.

3. I'm a Holgy supporter for now, I truly do like what he's done for the program, and think he has grown into his own as a coach, he's done a serviceable job moving into the Big 12 where it's a shootout every game. The Big 12 might not be the BEST football conference, but I think it's one of the hardest to run the gauntlet just because everyone is so high octane that it's almost impossible to go undefeated, you can never really be comfortable with a lead.

For Holgy and our program this year, I'm looking forward to seeing: growth in our program, can we compete for the Big 12 championship, this is our best opportunity in years, there was a mass exodus of quality quarterbacks at almost every team, we need to show that at least once in a few years we have the chance to be special. 05-07 was lightning in a bottle, and it sucks we never got our National Championship from it, but we need to be realistic. Being able to win 8-10 games in the Big 12, with the resources we have in Morgantown, West Virginia is impressive. If we can keep up and compete for a championship we're doing fine.

Another thing I want to see is play-calling, I hope Dana and Spavital had a long heart to heart and tweaked some of the system for this year. I think we didn't have the most amazing line to run behind, but hopefully with the outlook that we're supposed to improve there, we can be a bit more balanced, and kill some clock a few more times rather than the huge plays that leaves our defense tired, I'm hoping Spav shows a lot of growth this coming year too.

And speaking of defense, we look good on paper, just not that much depth, it's been addressed with some great transfer pick ups from Papa Dana's Transfer Hut, but we have to see how they mesh, and pray the injury devil that's ruined our lives the past few years stays away. Our linebackers and corner backs are our biggest question, but I think our defensive line has improved greatly with all the bodies, we're deep there now. If we can keep them rotating, and can cause pressure on new opposing QBs, it can truly help us out a lot, I'm looking for Gibby to draw up some pressure from different angles, and really help out on that aspect. Sure, the Big 12 has seen the 3-3-5 now time in and time again, and it's easier to prepare for, but the beauty of college football is that there's new guys out there every year, and even if you have the perfect scheme for it, you don't really learn against it until you experience it first hand.

We've all been hurt by West Virginia football, the expectations come crashing down when we finally drink the Kool Aid numerous times, and it leads to doubting, which I blame nobody for. However, I'm still here, I still wear my shirt on gameday, and I still have faith in this program. I genuinely do believe this is the year we make some noise, and I hope that we take advantage of our opportunity unlike that one game in 07 that still makes me queasy to this day. I know that football season is 100 days away, and I'll be there waiting to take on Tennessee, wearing the Old Gold and Blue, blasting Country Roads as loud as possible. Because as a fan, that's all we can do, appreciate what we have, be excited for the future, and hope it's the year the stars align, it's the beauty in the struggle.

Posted on: 5/24 2:00 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Quote:

apizzle wrote:
I'll kind of bite on this debate brobison, I definitely get what you're saying and yes it would be great to have serviceable back ups, and being the program we are, it's embarrassing that we didn't really have another option last year, it's not like we're some FCS team, we're in a Power 5 conference. I completely agree there, but for some of the arguments:

1. As for not seeing Grier as a Heisman contender because a couple quarter's were off, how much of that stems from Grier itself, and how much stems from Spavital's play-calling?? In the Kansas game, after half time the first drive went 6 plays 23 yards, on the first downs we threw on first, then ran with McKoy, and Grier completed another pass for the first down on 3rd, the next set of downs we ran McKoy twice and then Grier and Sills couldn't hook up, Kansas gets it, comes down and scores, we 3 plays for 13 yards with an interception, then next possession run it with Crawford a few times, etc. I think you see where I'm going, the play-calling was pretty questionable at times, and though it seems balanced, it didn't seem like we were balanced, and other times other teams were eating out the clock running like mad men on our defense.

I think Grier has all the intangibles to win the Heisman, he makes the throws like Geno did in his time, he has a good pocket presence, and knows how to feel pressure, it's not like he has weird mechanics or anything. In his FIRST full year under center he threw for 3,490 yards, with 34 TDs and 12 INTs completing 64.5% of his passes.

For reference, let's choose Trickett who was pretty servicable and also a transfer that had 2 years in the system: Trickett played 8 games and had 1,605 yards passing, 7 TDs and 7 INTs at 52.8%, BUT in his second year, Trickett in 11 threw for 3,285 with 18TDs and 10 INTs at 67.1%; the improvement was massive; hell even Skylar Howard improved 7% in completion, 200 yards, and had 4 less INTs. It's proven QB's grow in their second year under Dana, and so it'd be silly to think Grier regresses. I think he had to knock off some rust of being almost 2 years without playing a meaningful football game against VT, and he really wasn't THAT bad against them.

2. I think not having a Spring Game hurts in the "serviceable QB" department for us. I would have loved to see what Allison, Lowe, etc. could have done, and I think it might have helped ease some doubts. Even though it's unacceptable to not have a back-up QB, we've had some of the worst luck in the injuries/transfer departments.

Look at Cody Saunders (4* out of high school), he had a very solid spring game, pretty sure he had a couple TD passes, no INTs and there was some optimism around this program until a injury cut his career short. Crest never developed, Ford Childress transferred out, we didn't have any QB stability. I don't necessarily think it's for a lack of recruiting, just some **** luck. Our defense has also gone through those swings of **** luck.

3. I'm a Holgy supporter for now, I truly do like what he's done for the program, and think he has grown into his own as a coach, he's done a serviceable job moving into the Big 12 where it's a shootout every game. The Big 12 might not be the BEST football conference, but I think it's one of the hardest to run the gauntlet just because everyone is so high octane that it's almost impossible to go undefeated, you can never really be comfortable with a lead.

For Holgy and our program this year, I'm looking forward to seeing: growth in our program, can we compete for the Big 12 championship, this is our best opportunity in years, there was a mass exodus of quality quarterbacks at almost every team, we need to show that at least once in a few years we have the chance to be special. 05-07 was lightning in a bottle, and it sucks we never got our National Championship from it, but we need to be realistic. Being able to win 8-10 games in the Big 12, with the resources we have in Morgantown, West Virginia is impressive. If we can keep up and compete for a championship we're doing fine.

Another thing I want to see is play-calling, I hope Dana and Spavital had a long heart to heart and tweaked some of the system for this year. I think we didn't have the most amazing line to run behind, but hopefully with the outlook that we're supposed to improve there, we can be a bit more balanced, and kill some clock a few more times rather than the huge plays that leaves our defense tired, I'm hoping Spav shows a lot of growth this coming year too.

And speaking of defense, we look good on paper, just not that much depth, it's been addressed with some great transfer pick ups from Papa Dana's Transfer Hut, but we have to see how they mesh, and pray the injury devil that's ruined our lives the past few years stays away. Our linebackers and corner backs are our biggest question, but I think our defensive line has improved greatly with all the bodies, we're deep there now. If we can keep them rotating, and can cause pressure on new opposing QBs, it can truly help us out a lot, I'm looking for Gibby to draw up some pressure from different angles, and really help out on that aspect. Sure, the Big 12 has seen the 3-3-5 now time in and time again, and it's easier to prepare for, but the beauty of college football is that there's new guys out there every year, and even if you have the perfect scheme for it, you don't really learn against it until you experience it first hand.

We've all been hurt by West Virginia football, the expectations come crashing down when we finally drink the Kool Aid numerous times, and it leads to doubting, which I blame nobody for. However, I'm still here, I still wear my shirt on gameday, and I still have faith in this program. I genuinely do believe this is the year we make some noise, and I hope that we take advantage of our opportunity unlike that one game in 07 that still makes me queasy to this day. I know that football season is 100 days away, and I'll be there waiting to take on Tennessee, wearing the Old Gold and Blue, blasting Country Roads as loud as possible. Because as a fan, that's all we can do, appreciate what we have, be excited for the future, and hope it's the year the stars align, it's the beauty in the struggle.


Just to let you know, I don't disagree with your statement about Grier. I think it may be that Grier will end being one of the greatest QBs in WVU history. As for the Heisman trophy that isn't enough or worse yet doesn't even matter.

All I need to say is Tim Tebow won the Heisman. It isn't about the greatness of the player it is about picking a player off a team that wins.

To give you some perspective, Ben Roethlisberger got 47 points out of about 4,000 in the voting for the Heisman in 2003. I have only ever seen one guy in college better than he was and that was Dan Marino, which brings me to Dan Marino, even he didn't win a Heisman.

Grier is not flashy. Grier is not going to tuck it and run for 50 yards making guys miss him in highlight reel fashion. As a result, he doesn't have a chance to win unless WVU wins the NC. Even then if he struggles AT ALL against one of the worst programs in FBS (Kansas) that is a death punch. It doesn't matter why he struggled.

If we are saying that we think WVU will lose 3 games or even 2 games if we don't make the play-offs Grier has no chance of being the Heisman candidate. Remember, he a QB. The Heisman doesn't have to be given to a QB. There are any number of players that will put up flashy numbers.

It doesn't matter if Spavital is the problem or not. Spav can cost him a Heisman as well as anyone.

Posted on: 5/24 3:06 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Grant Ave. Warrior
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Quote:

brobison wrote:
Just to let you know, I don't disagree with your statement about Grier. I think it may be that Grier will end being one of the greatest QBs in WVU history. As for the Heisman trophy that isn't enough or worse yet doesn't even matter.

All I need to say is Tim Tebow won the Heisman. It isn't about the greatness of the player it is about picking a player off a team that wins.

To give you some perspective, Ben Roethlisberger got 47 points out of about 4,000 in the voting for the Heisman in 2003. I have only ever seen one guy in college better than he was and that was Dan Marino, which brings me to Dan Marino, even he didn't win a Heisman.

Grier is not flashy. Grier is not going to tuck it and run for 50 yards making guys miss him in highlight reel fashion. As a result, he doesn't have a chance to win unless WVU wins the NC. Even then if he struggles AT ALL against one of the worst programs in FBS (Kansas) that is a death punch. It doesn't matter why he struggled.

If we are saying that we think WVU will lose 3 games or even 2 games if we don't make the play-offs Grier has no chance of being the Heisman candidate. Remember, he a QB. The Heisman doesn't have to be given to a QB. There are any number of players that will put up flashy numbers.

It doesn't matter if Spavital is the problem or not. Spav can cost him a Heisman as well as anyone.


True, I agree that some less than stellar winners of the Heisman that didn't pan out in the NFL, and guys that put up numbers that looked amazing who didn't get a sniff. You're also right that it depends on how WVU goes in order for him to have a chance.

I like to think of Geno though, his Senior year he was the October Heisman winner after tearing through the first 4-5 games of the season, and yes he had that monster 600+ yard game, and our best comparison is Mayfield who made headlines for his antics, and was definitely flashy, but I still think Grier will get a look even not being flashy. I mainly say that because some hype has been generated in the off-season about him being the best QB, and I also believe he's gonna throw up 4,000 yards in our offense. He's not going to run like hell, but Geno didn't either, if he puts up 350+ a game, tosses for 40+ TDs and we win a Big 12, I wouldn't be surprised to see him invited to the trophy presentation.

There are much more flashier running backs in the nation, but it seems an elite level QB gets a lot of love for the Heisman voting, I mean Tebow had great college stats, and the National Championships going for him, if WVU is unreal good like we hope, I don't see how our guy doesn't get some looks and love.

Posted on: 5/24 5:20 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Suspected Punter
Joined:
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I’m not on the Fire Holgy train at this point for a few reasons:

1. Who would we replace him with? The grass isn’t always greener. Not to mention a significant change in scheme will cost us a few years to rebuild.
2. He has several years left in his contract. Not sure we’re a school who will pay out several years of a contract and still have millions left over to sign a big name.
3. Last year ended poorly mostly due to injuries in the second half of the season. The year before we were a 10 win team. It’s not like we’re on a streak of lackluster years.

That said, Holgy needs to show improvement this year...not just in overall record, but in on the field performance, such as:

1. Play complete games. Seems like most games last year we only played one half. He needs to make halftime adjustments just like other teams.
2. Beat brand name programs were better than. Tennessee is a team we should beat by 2 touchdowns, yet I feel like Holgy has always been timid against big name teams in the past. Even the year we won the Orange Bowl, we lost to brand teams (at least by Big East standards) we should have beaten.
3. Beat the teams on our level. TCU should not be dominating the series with us (4-2). Kansas State should not be close with us every year.

I will, however, quickly turn on Holgy in any of these scenarios:

1. Open the season with a loss to Tennessee. Holgy needs to win this game for the reasons mentioned above. This team is not better than us and a loss would prove Holgy is intimidated by a big name. This would set the stage for another underperforming year.
2. 2 losses to combination of TCU / Okla State / kState. I’ll give him one loss to these 3 but no more.
3. Anything less than a 9 win season without any injuries. If we stay healthy, I think this team can win at least 10 games. Anything less than 9 is underperforming. This scenario obviously changes if we lose key players through the year.


Posted on: 5/25 11:44 am
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
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Posts: 4832
Quote:
2. He has several years left in his contract. Not sure we’re a school who will pay out several years of a contract and still have millions left over to sign a big name.


Last year our SPORTS revenue was $105 million. You read that right $105 MILLION!!!!

We have enough money to do both of those things. Because......this year.....we'll have another $105 MILLION coming in!

You ain't in the Big East anymore and have to live off the Big Boys table scraps. We are ONE of the Big Boys now. Now let's act like it!

https://247sports.com/college/west-vir ... nally-in-Revenue-53465122

Posted on: 5/25 6:27 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Grant Ave. Warrior
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Man that's awesome to see, and that's great we have the finances to be able to hire a competitive coach, I just genuinely don't know who'd be chomping at the bits to take over WVU though, I really don't know anybody well established that would move over, and so then you have another Holgy situation where you take a risk on an upen coming flier.

Posted on: 5/25 7:21 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
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From Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 1090
Dana's demonstration of growth as a coach and Jake's potential of becoming a sacrificial lamb pretty much guarantees Holg's will be here next year.

Posted on: 5/25 11:53 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
WMITC
Joined:
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From Parkersburg, WV
Posts: 8843
Quote:

MekaGojira wrote:
Dana's demonstration of growth as a coach and Jake's potential of becoming a sacrificial lamb pretty much guarantees Holg's will be here next year.


Hmm. Not your first college football rodeo.

Posted on: 5/26 9:01 am
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Gettin' Schmitty
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I`d put in my 2 cents, I only have 1 currently but I`m trying to save. carry on.

Posted on: 5/27 8:13 pm
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Re: Make or Break Year for Holgy?
Suspected Punter
Joined:
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I've gone back and watched several of last year's games again and again and will add to the conversation that Grier will have to improve considerably in order to win or to be in the running for the Heisman. Secondly, Spavital will, unless Holgersen steps in and makes some changes, be the biggest detriment we face as a team with his stupid play calling.

Posted on: 5/28 7:57 am
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