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The End of Old Coal?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
12/15/2007 7:54 am
From Drexel Hill, PA
Posts: 1019
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nationa ... /26/gIQAiJTscS_story.html

No more new US coal fired power plants. Unless clean coal is a reality. Otherwise, the domestic fleet of existing coal plants is it.

By the way, NSPS standards take effect at proposal, not finalization, so the battle is basically over.

And yes, EPA can do this with their existing authority. The Supreme Court told EPA, twice, that it needs to run its program. And that its program includes greenhouse gases. This is a class case of "Chevron deference," where the agency can do things it can logically defend based on what Congress told it to do. And here EPA is simply applying the Clean Air Act to a regulated air pollutant. The Supreme Court, if precedent holds, will uphold this.

And before you ask, the leading law review article on the topic has my name on it.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 5:26 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
I see the beaten-coal-worker syndrome is alive and well.


The technology is there to build them...it's not that we can't.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 7:14 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
I guess you don't work in a West Virginia coal mine or power plant in order to feed, clothe, and house your family. Good for you.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 7:34 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
How did I say I was against any of those things?

Stop blasting people for things they don't say.



I'm all for coal...done responsibly. I'm am 100% against strip mining, but am fine with deep shaft mining when done properly.


I'm also saying that the premise that the CO2 regulations means "the end of coal" is completely fabricated. We can build coal power plants that meet the regulation. We just don't want to.

For those of you who defend King Coal....here's a little chart I put together a while back.


This shows the Coal Production vs. # of Coal Employees over the last century or so.

If you notice....the coal industry doesn't employ as many people as it used to, and probably less than you think. Data was taken from WVCoal.com.


There are fewer coal jobs today than there were in 1900, which was 112 years ago.



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The population in West Virginia is what, 1.8 million people?

With 20,000 coal jobs, that means approximately 1.1% of West Virginians are employed by the coal companies.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 8:04 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
7/20/2008 1:23 pm
From Warrenton, Va
Posts: 7012
There are many angles that one can view this issue from. It is unproductive to view it only from the one that benefits you.

The question that should be asked at this point is:

Is the economic well being of the workers in an industry more important than offsetting damage (both alleged and verified) to the global and local environment.

If the answer is yes, then what can be done to mitigate the damage by other means or to offset the impact on the industry.

Not taking either side here, as I find both sides to be showing an "all or nothing" mentality which is essentially why our legislative government is horribly calcified.


Posted on: 3/27/2012 9:28 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
Agreed.

I just get upset when people bring up environmental concerns, the other side always jumps to "you hate jobs".

So...I decided to use that argument against them.

20,000 jobs isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but it surely is important that those 20,000 people remain gainfully employed.


My point was, that the claim that regulation is the sole cause of 'no new coal fired power plants being built' is completely false. We have the technology to build "clean coal power plants"....it's just expensive to do so.


Now, if we want to debate whether or not the government who imposes the regulations should foot part of the bill for helping companies meet those regulations, that's fine. But to say the government is "killing coal" is a gross oversimplification of the issue.



Posted on: 3/27/2012 9:48 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
Quote:
WVisHome wrote: With 20,000 coal jobs, that means approximately 1.1% of West Virginians are employed by the coal companies.


Those are stupid and misleading statistics. There are more people in our State whose livelihood is tied to the mining and power generation industries than your faulty data shows. They just all don't work directly in the industries. Vendors, contractors, electrical supply companies, heavy equipment manufacturers, doctors, food service personnel, lawyers,...and the list goes on. Many companies base their success on supporting the mining industry. And there are less miners now than in 1900 for the same reason there are similarly fewer jobs in other industries. Technology has made it possible to do more with less people.

Then, look at the tax revenue that the mining industry and related support industries generate for our State. Money that's used to provide programs that assist the citizens of West Virginia.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 9:49 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
Quote:
WVisHome wrote: But to say the government is "killing coal" is a gross oversimplification of the issue.


That's exactly what they're trying to do. But, not all government. Mostly just the liberals in government.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 9:52 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
I know you're closed minded, so I'm not even going to bother debating this with you.

Enjoy being the Coal Baron's bitch.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:00 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
It's spelled BARON bitch.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:01 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Pitt Hater
Joined:
2/3/2011 11:14 am
From Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1531
Can we rename The Soap Box to "The Cons v Libs Pissing Contest"

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:03 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
7/20/2008 1:23 pm
From Warrenton, Va
Posts: 7012
Quote:

wvman75 wrote:

There are more people in our State whose livelihood is tied to the mining and power generation industries than your faulty data shows. They just all don't work directly in the industries. Vendors, contractors, electrical supply companies, heavy equipment manufacturers, doctors, food service personnel, lawyers,...and the list goes on.


I agree 100%, however I will point out that (for whatever reason) there has been little success in diversifying. I've been of the opinion for a long time that my home state needs desperately to diversify its economy. I don't know how to do that, but it needs to happen. King Coal was dethroned a long time ago, and his power lessons more each year, for good or bad.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:10 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
Quote:

wvman75 wrote:
There are more people in our State whose livelihood is tied to the mining and power generation industries than your faulty data shows.... doctors....lawyers...


That's good that you factor health and legal concerns in your view of "coal jobs". That must mean they're doing a bangup job.

Call my data "faulty" if you'd like, but I took it directly from the Baron himself, WVCoal.com.

I had data to back my argument....where's yours?

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:15 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
I wish our State's economy would become more diversified, as well. But, it's not, and the prospects that it will become so in the near term is slim. That still doesn't change the fact that much of our State's economic fortunes and employment, at the present time, are still tied to the mining industry, whether directly or indirectly. I fail to understand why any citizen of our State would support those who promote policies that undermine the well-being of our citizens and the fiscal prospects for our State. Maybe they're trying to force diversification. I don't see that working out so well or being in the best interests of West Virginia or it's citizens.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:21 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
Quote:
WVisHome wrote: I had data to back my argument....where's yours?


You used data in a misleading way to make a ludicrous point. Try using a little common sense.

EDIT: Never mind....

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:24 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
7/20/2008 1:23 pm
From Warrenton, Va
Posts: 7012
Quote:

wvman75 wrote:
I wish our State's economy would become more diversified, as well. But, it's not, and the prospects that it will become so in the near term is slim. That still doesn't change the fact that much of our State's economic fortunes and employment, at the present time, are still tied to the mining industry, whether directly or indirectly. I fail to understand why any citizen of our State would support those who promote policies that undermine the well-being of our citizens and the fiscal prospects for our State. Maybe they're trying to force diversification. I don't see that working out so well or being in the best interests of West Virginia or it's citizens.


Well, economic well being and fiscal soundness are only two issues. There are many more, both legitimate and contrived.

I'm not sure I agree continuing to expand and centralize your economy on a potentially shrinking market is ultimately for the good of the state, and if the end result will be a much more painful crash as we continue to put off diversification in favor of the "easy" choice.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:29 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
Quote:
zwaaa wrote: I'm not sure I agree continuing to expand and centralize your economy on a potentially shrinking market is ultimately for the good of the state


That's a fine sentiment. Of course, part of the reason that the market is shrinking is because of the regulatory policies that are being pursued. I can't see the justification in pointing to a shrinking market for coal, if they caused it to begin with.

I do agree with the benefits of our State becoming a more diversified economy. I guess liberal policies are going to make that happen by shrinking the coal market?

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:36 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 11467
Quote:

wvman75 wrote:
Quote:
WVisHome wrote: I had data to back my argument....where's yours?


You used data in a misleading way to make a ludicrous point. Try using a little common sense.

EDIT: Never mind....


At least I HAD data.

How was my point ludicrous? I did not state anything but fact.



Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:36 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
One out of two ain't bad, I guess.



EDIT: "There are lies, there are damn lies, and then there are statistics." - Mark Twain

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:37 am
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Re: The End of Old Coal?
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
2/11/2012 10:32 pm
From Seattle
Posts: 6121
Quote:

WVisHome wrote:

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Interesting stuff. It looks like there were a couple periods where employment vs production made huge departures - around 1950 and 1980. Any idea what caused those? I guess around 1980 was when strip mining really got going wasn't it? But what was 1950? No idea on that one.

Also. you mentioned the ability to make coal plants clean today. We can definitely make them cleaner but I don't think clean is possible.

Posted on: 3/27/2012 10:47 am
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