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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama

Joined:
12/7/2009 7:07 pm
From Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 12958
Quote:

joedaddyski wrote:
Quote:

Eers88 wrote:
Quote:

joedaddyski wrote:

Quote:

Eers88 wrote:
Quote:

joedaddyski wrote:
Short Economics lesson, for the drinkers of the Obama health care Kool Aid - Medicare and Medicaid - in fact have resulted in increased health care costs, period.
How - It is simple, the government (Medicare & Medicaid) only pays 1/4 or less of the going rate for a procedure therefore the added cost is sent down the line to the insured and uninsured that pay cash. See how simple that is.


joedaddy - you might want to actually educate yourself on health care reform as well as Medicare and Medicaid before you think about giving any lessons on those subjects. HCR does not create government-funded health care; it affects the relationships between private insurers and insureds. Medicare and Medicaid are partially-funded programs for certain citizens who qualify because of age, disability, etc. They are apples and oranges.

BTW - your premise that Medicare and Medicaid are responsible for rising health care costs is mistaken. The Kaiser foundation identifies the factors for rising health care costs in the link below:

http://www.kaiseredu.org/Issue-Module ... sts/Background-Brief.aspx


The following was quoted from the source you provided.
Now read it and let me know how all that adds up. Your response and insult are obviously attempts to bring yourself to a level above the fold yet proves that you are no better equiped to understand this issue than the rest of the bleading heart librals that believe in utopian health care for all. By the way let's not forget about the other major reasons for rising costs - gread and profit.
Don't forget too - if we really want to fix this problem we need to talk about prevention, which by the way did make this list but it was not number one yet it was number 5 of a list of 7 things that were mentioned.
Please read and comprehend before you start pointing a finger.

Government programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, account for a significant share of health care spending, but they have increased at a slower rate than private insurance. Medicare per capita spending has grown at a slightly lower rate, on average, than private health insurance spending, at about 6.8 vs. 7.1% annually respectively between 1998 and 2008. [3] Medicaid expenditures, similarly, have grown at slower rate than private spending, though enrollment in the program has increased during the current economic recession, which may result in increased Medicaid spending figures soon.



I did read it and I do comprehend it. It says that Medicare and Medicaid account for a significant share of spending, not costs. These are two different things. All this says is that Medicare and Medicaid are the sources of payment for the high costs that are caused by other issues. In fact, the article says that the costs paid through Medicare and Medicaid are actually increasing at a lower rate than those paid through other sources.

This is wherein your comprehention is off. Let me give you an example.
A fair market price for an item, with a profit is $85 but it is sold for $70 to one customer and is breaking even or lossing money they then have to charge $100 to another customer to make up the difference.
Now put Medicade and Medicare in the place of the $70 item and $100 in place of the insurance and cash paying customers.
Now you increase Medicare and Medicade at a slower rate it pushes the higher cost to who?
Now I think you can answer that one.

Arguing that the source of payment raises costs is like arguing that your checking account is responsible for any increase or decrease in your heating bill.


This is wherein your comprehention is off. Let me give you an example.
A fair market price for an item, with a profit is $85 but it is sold for $70 to one customer and is breaking even or lossing money they then have to charge $100 to another customer to make up the difference.
Now put Medicade and Medicare in the place of the $70 item and $100 in place of the insurance and cash paying customers.
Now you increase Medicare and Medicade at a slower rate it pushes the higher cost to who?
Now I think you can answer that one.

And your last statement:

Arguing that the source of payment raises costs is like arguing that your checking account is responsible for any increase or decrease in your heating bill.

THis statment has no relevance to this whole thread.


Actually the statement is an analogy of your flawed and unsupported argument. You are arguing that x causes y without any proof and are asking for an awfully large factual leap to get there. You simply assume without any support that health care providers raise costs on private insurance companies based on your assumption that they lose money on providing healthcare to people on Medicare and Medicaid. Your argument misses the fact that many private insurance carriers also cap the amounts they pay for certain procedures and that these are negotiated with hospitals as well. If your cause and effect model is correct, who is responsible for the rising cost of healthcare? Finally, studies show that the rise in the cost of healthcare is related to more expensive procedures, and other factors that actually affect costs, not payments.

More importantly, you don't even address the fact that HCR has nothing to do with Medicare and Medicaid and is not even remotely similar in design or function. This was a discussion about HCR and you said it was going to raise the cost of healthcare through the roof. You pointed to Medicare and Medicaid as the basis for your statement. Thus, I said that arguing that the source of the payment (which is represented by your checking account in my analogy) as the cause of an increase in health care costs (represented by the heating bill in my analogy) is flawed. Sure it is somewhat oversimplistic, but the point still remains true. Costs are costs and payments are payments.

Posted on: 2/21/2011 2:45 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama
Pitt Hater
Joined:
6/26/2010 9:15 am
Posts: 2383
Ears 88 you just don't get it do you?

Posted on: 2/22/2011 12:07 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama
Pitt Hater
Joined:
6/26/2010 9:15 am
Posts: 2383
I was so POed earlier today. I could not focus on how easier to put this.

Yes Ears I am talking to you.

Why can you not understand - if someone pays below market price for a product, because they are forced to (medicare and medicaid), then they have to make it up somewhere else. This to me is simple; they have to shove it off to the insurance paying patience. I know this for a fact because my wife does insurance billing.

I will grant you that costs have risen too because of our advances but we are not dealing with a true free market concept.

Plain and simple - I do not want the federal government involved anymore than they already are. They have f'ed up almost everything they have touched and then they do not have to deal with it because they exclude themselves.

What the f could be wrong with them sticking their nose into someplace where they have already f'ed it up and we expect them to correct it..............

I am on a role - the f'ing government is so corrupt they couldn't find one that could pass a lie detector test. I am just sick and tired of the whole system. It's nothing but a bunk of lawyers talking in circles and keeping most citizens mesmerized by all they do while screwing us.


Posted on: 2/22/2011 7:26 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
12/9/2009 10:45 am
From durham, nc
Posts: 5224
Quote:

joedaddyski wrote:

Why can you not understand - if someone pays below market price for a product, because they are forced to (medicare and medicaid), then they have to make it up somewhere else. This to me is simple; they have to shove it off to the insurance paying patience. I know this for a fact because my wife does insurance billing.


How exactly is that different than people without insurance (unemployed, illegal aliens, etc.) not paying for healthcare at all and that being pushed on to the insurance-paying patients?

In case you missed it...those folks use the emergency room as their primary care physician.

Posted on: 2/22/2011 8:17 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
I agree with 4da. That's one of the major points dealt with in this new law (where Republicans are trying to stop the government from organizing a market of private insurers to be available to compete - isn't that rich, the very thing Republicans claim is their nirvana they are trying to stop.)

It requires organization because everyone must be accepted and no one can be dropped when they get sick, so there are high risk insurance pools involved. Right now there is no market, they cherry pick healthy only and drop anyone who gets sick on any pretense. The law to stop that is taking effect but again Republicans trying to stop it. They are paid off lapdogs.

In addition, private insurers also have very strict rates they pay. This "pushing off" stuff from Joe, wife into billing or not, bounces right off their computers. They pay what they pay, period.

I unfortunately have been more involved in generating and paying health care bills with insurance more than usual last couple of years. I'm insured through my employers group plan, but should that job be lost I would never be able to get health insurance on my own.

Again, Republicans don't care about that at all. All they care about is trying to undermine anything Democrats did so they can re-establish their neocon empire.

It worked so well last eight years prior to Obama, people are frothing at the mouth to bring these Big Brother nazis back.

rd

Posted on: 2/22/2011 11:42 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama

Joined:
12/7/2009 7:07 pm
From Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 12958
Quote:

joedaddyski wrote:
I was so POed earlier today. I could not focus on how easier to put this.

Yes Ears I am talking to you.

Why can you not understand - if someone pays below market price for a product, because they are forced to (medicare and medicaid), then they have to make it up somewhere else. This to me is simple; they have to shove it off to the insurance paying patience. I know this for a fact because my wife does insurance billing.

I will grant you that costs have risen too because of our advances but we are not dealing with a true free market concept.

Plain and simple - I do not want the federal government involved anymore than they already are. They have f'ed up almost everything they have touched and then they do not have to deal with it because they exclude themselves.

What the f could be wrong with them sticking their nose into someplace where they have already f'ed it up and we expect them to correct it..............

I am on a role - the f'ing government is so corrupt they couldn't find one that could pass a lie detector test. I am just sick and tired of the whole system. It's nothing but a bunk of lawyers talking in circles and keeping most citizens mesmerized by all they do while screwing us.



Here is what I get. I get that you contend (1) that Medicare and Medicaid are the cause of rising health care costs and (2) that HCR is going to raise health care costs. I get that I have read unbiased reports by experts in the field who state that your contentions are wrong as a matter of fact (and also show that many of your assumptions are false assumptions). I get that your contentions are unsupported by anything of substance - a report, actual statistics, expert analysis - and is solely your own analysis of the entire health care system based on some anecdotal hearsay evidence of one hospital's billng practices. I am sorry if you cannot understand why I cannot see it your way on this, but I think I will go with the experts in the field unless you give me something more to go with. If you have any arguments with these experts and their assessments, I suggest you take it up with them.

Posted on: 2/24/2011 2:48 pm
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Re: Interesting Read on Spending Under Obama
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
How can Medicare simultaneously be accused of inadequately reimbursing doctors and be the cause of rising health care costs?

Those statements made by right wingers are contradictory.

Private insurance pays more than Medicaid, and unless increased costs paid by either of them them is going straight to the pockets of the insurance funds, and it isn't, it's going somewhere else.

That is the source of the rapidly escalating health care costs, not the payers who can't even keep up with those rising costs.

Of course that's been said before and better in this thread alone, but worth repeating since it clearly isn't sinking in.

Posted on: 2/24/2011 10:57 pm
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