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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 14518
Quote:

Billhilly wrote:
Jude forgive me.

But you all just need to shut the **** up!

20 KIDS! are dead.

And here you guys are showing your respect for them by playing politics with there story.

Hell at least let them be in the ground before both sides start using there deaths to justifies your political passions.


That's a mighty tall horse you're on there.

Sorry, I wont sit idly by while people try to say banning guns will prevent tragedies like this, because it won't.

Posted on: 12/15/2012 11:36 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
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From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4830
Quote:
1. Ban assault weapons except for police and military.

2. Stop the manufacture and sale of ammunition for those guns still in circulation, other than to police or military. When the owners run out of bullets, they become clubs or paperweights.

3. Enact longer waiting period to buy a gun and more extensive background checks focusing on, among other things, mental health issues.

4. Place severe restrictions on buying guns at gun shows.

5. Protect the right of people to buy handguns for personal protection as well as hunting rifles, but do everything possible to investigate and educate the purchasers of these guns and make gun safety training a mandatory requirement before you can have the gun.

6. Enforce tougher laws and enact stiffer penalties for any crime in which a gun is involved and for unlawful sale of guns.

That's off the top of my head.

Will this stop gun violence? No, but it would reduce it to some degree, and saving a few lives is better than saving no lives at all. In time, the number of illegal guns will be diminished, but only if something is done to curb their manufacture, sale and use.

You have to start somewhere, instead of just sitting home on your Second Amendment ass and parroting the catch phrase of the NRA: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."


Sane,

This is another example of what I am talking about.

More background checks/longer time would not have worked because:

1. HE didn't own the guns his mother did. and...
2. I doubt that there would be anything that came back on a MH background check. I am pretty sure that he was not in mental health treatment. I am not sure of that but I thought I heard he wasn't.
3. No evidence that this was a rash buy a gun and commit a crime. The guns were available and they were taken.
4. In no way is everyone who is mentally ill recognized. That in and of itself is a big problem because it is often not recognized until too late.

In terms of safety. I don't really have a problem with that in and of itself but once again I doubt that an instructor would specifically cite the desire that it may be dangerous/inappropriate to take a gun into a grade school and shoot children.

I think that once you have in your mind the disregard of one law that is pretty universal across all cultures (Not killing another human) I am pretty sure that no other laws are going to matter and it will be just a matter of time.

Just to play a little devil's advocate about gun shows. I wonder how many guns sold at gun shows actually end up in crime. I am sure that it is more than from a dealer, but I wonder if it has been reduced recently (last 10 years). I also wonder how it compares to individual sales person to person which is completely unregulated. You can choose to do a transfer through a licensed dealer but I am pretty sure you are not required to.

A problem with the tougher laws for crimes committed with firearms is that it can cause more problems than it solves. The federal law provides stiffer penalties and you get to an attitude of if you hold up someone and take their money using a gun you just shoot them because there is a better chance of getting away with it than if you let the victim go and you are already in a world of trouble by just using a gun in a crime.

I don't really think there are any good answers short of some VERY intrusive actions. If you thought what is going on in the airports are bad with the TSA you wouldn't like what it would take to prevent these things from happening.

In contrast to the gun violence that happens in this country which is 3 times the rate of the rest of the industrialized world the crime of rape is just as prevalent and a gun is rarely (4%) used in commission of these crimes. We just live in a violent society.

Posted on: 12/15/2012 11:40 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 14518
+2 to both posts Brobison.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:08 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
Quote:

WVisHome wrote:
I hunted for years with my father's .223 Mini-14, which is a semi-auto rifle.

I've got some serious reservations about all of the conflicting information out there. Why in the hell would initial reports say the rifle was in the car if it was with the shooter?

Hitler also said people would be safer if the populace was unarmed.


There was a fourth weapon in the car, a "long" rifle. Not identified yet.

This delusional madman spent some time preparing. I saw a reference to where he taped ammo cartridges together so he wouldn't have to reload as often (if switching ammo cartridges can be considered as "reloading" - oh my, such effort to go through when gunning down a roomful of people).



Posted on: 12/16/2012 1:01 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
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From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
I say the following in memory of the 20 children and 6 teachers gunned down with a powerful military assault weapon, sprayed with countless bullets.

Gun enthusiasts say there should have been armed security at the school. The teachers should have been armed. They stop short of calling for the first graders to be armed, but they're working on it. Never can have enough "carrying" people for gun enthusiasts.

An armed security guard would have one chance for a head shot with their revolver before being sprayed with bullets from a military assault weapon. Good luck with that.

The teachers and staff all carrying guns? That would have slowed him down some. The principal and school psychologist tried to run at him and were shot down. If they were charging with guns firing he probably would have taken a bullet in the leg or arm or somewhere not protected by the bulletproof vest. But they would go down in a hail of bullets.

So for the gun enthusiasts, who like to play with these assault weapons, the answer is everyone armed with an assault weapon. Then everyone is safe. And so much fun.

But there is a type of person that everyone, gun enthusiasts or not, agree shouldn't be allowed near a weapon. And that is these crazy young men who want to die massacring innocent people. On that we can all agree on.

While the Constitution expects and defends an armed citizenry, and the Supreme Court has ruled that the citizenry are not required to belong to a militia to bear arms, it is reasonable to require males to belong or have completed service in a state recognized militia (military, police, guard, etc.) or having attained a mature age (e.g., 30) to have in possession semi-automatic assault weapons, rifle or pistol.

Further, all persons residing at a residence must meet the requirements for semi-automatic assault weapons to be at the residence.

This is where the rubber meets the road. If your son coming of age is not capable of meeting militia training requirements, then for the protection of society military assault weapons need to be kept away from them, removed to storage until they are stable enough to be around your big boy toys.

After everything we've been through this massacre of school children in Newtown should not have happened, but it did, and will continue to happen until we do something to change it.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 2:23 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
10/2/2009 1:14 am
Posts: 4012
Anyone who thinks teachers should be armed is a moron. Then what? A teacher loses their cool and shoots a co-worker or student?

Posted on: 12/16/2012 9:52 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
WMITC
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1/6/2008 1:03 pm
From Here
Posts: 23547
Just one more comment.

Everyone has been quick to point out why the stricter gun laws I mentioned would not have worked in this case. Maybe that's true. Speculative, but possibly true.

But how about the next one and the one after that?

I get a flu shot every year that is effective against some types of flu but not all of them. Why do I bother then? Because I just might catch a strain that it IS effective against, so there is no good reason NOT to do it.

Similarly, I can see no logical reason to oppose a ban on assault weapons but there IS a logical reason to support it in the off chance that it MIGHT prevent one person from one mass shooting in the future -- someone who DOESN'T have a mother who collects guns.

There is no logical reason to oppose expanded background checks but there IS a logical reason to support them because they MIGHT find something that keeps a whacko from getting guns.

The only argument put forth in this thread for opposing an assault weapons ban is because people who own them think they are so much fun to shoot. Seriously? That's the best you've got?

I stated in my original post that we will never eradicate gun violence in this country (I'm not stupid) and I never implied in any way that the CT shootings could have been avoided.

But to say that we don't need to do anything to address the gun issue is like saying we don't need flu shots because they don't work on all strains of influenza, and then sitting at home and waiting to catch a strain of flu that the shot could have prevented.

In other words, the argument being put forth here is, "We can't save everybody so why would we want to save anybody?"

It's that attitude that I find to be lazy, irrational and irresponsible, and a cop out perpetrated by the gun lobby to keep us buying guns and ammo and shooting up anything and everything in sight.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 9:57 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
7/20/2008 1:23 pm
From Just barely outside the Beltway.
Posts: 7659
Ok, so as someone who supports the right to own a gun after having been properly trained...

I basically see this as follows.





Open in new window

This is for hunting, feeding your family, culling wildlife and personal defense when necessary. I own two of these. I keep them locked in a safe with trigger locks. I'm not an avid hunter, but I grew up in southern WV...so I do hunt and fish.





Open in new window

This is for personal and home defense. I own one of these (.357 actually, not a .38) - properly hidden with a trigger lock in my home. It is also for CCP when necessary. Most CCP programs (like in Virginia where you can take a brief online course and walk around with a pistol) are grossly inadequate IMHO. I do not CCP. I do not see a need yet.

I think people that do are, for the most part (BUT NOT TOTALLY), irrationally paranoid. I agree that gun control laws do little to protect people from gun violence, but I also know that the DATA from studies indicates that increased gun ownership ALSO did not decrease gun violence in Florida in 2003. So the "If only I was there with my gun, it woudda' been different" fantasy is just that.





Open in new window

This is to help people compensate for the fact that they have a tiny penis.


Posted on: 12/16/2012 9:58 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
12/9/2009 10:45 am
From durham, nc
Posts: 5224
Quote:

Billhilly wrote:
Jude forgive me.

But you all just need to shut the **** up!

20 KIDS! are dead.

And here you guys are showing your respect for them by playing politics with there story.

Hell at least let them be in the ground before both sides start using there deaths to justifies your political passions.



Open in new window


Get over yourself.

Stay away from the thread if it offends you.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 10:09 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
12/9/2009 10:45 am
From durham, nc
Posts: 5224
Maybe there should be harsher penalties for folks who own guns that are used in a crime. Obviously not applicable here.

The background checks are good and a longer wait won't make them better (in my opinion). Here are my new proposed rules:

1. Register guns like we do cars...no such thing as an ownerless gun
2. Lose a gun that is never found? Five year ban on buying new guns.
3. Lose a gun that is later used in a crime? No more guns for you...it is partially your fault.
4. Family/friend steals your gun and commits a crime? No more guns for you either.
5. Fail to report a lost/stolen gun? No more for you.

These are just off the top of my head...no deep thought involved. I feel it is a good conversation to have. There should be consequences for being careless with gun ownership.

Prayers for the families of the victims.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 10:27 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
7/20/2008 1:23 pm
From Just barely outside the Beltway.
Posts: 7659
Quote:

eer_4da_beer wrote:
Maybe there should be harsher penalties for folks who own guns that are used in a crime. Obviously not applicable here.


Well - I think the penalty of manslaughter is pretty straightforward. I don't think the penalty was a deterrent here. I don't think that EITHER gun control or increased gun rights will change the numbers. What I do think is that when you have people snapping like this - you need to look at why they are snapping, not killing them mid snap in some 80's crime movie fantasy.

Quote:
The background checks are good and a longer wait won't make them better (in my opinion). Here are my new proposed rules:

1. Register guns like we do cars...no such thing as an ownerless gun
2. Lose a gun that is never found? Five year ban on buying new guns.
3. Lose a gun that is later used in a crime? No more guns for you...it is partially your fault.
4. Family/friend steals your gun and commits a crime? No more guns for you either.
5. Fail to report a lost/stolen gun? No more for you.

These are just off the top of my head...no deep thought involved. I feel it is a good conversation to have. There should be consequences for being careless with gun ownership.


Well, I do think the fact that the power of death in your hand being less regulated than a car or a radio broadcasting license is counter intuitive. The problem is not the length, or the penalties. The problem is that we have these mechanisms and they have been diluted by those among us who feel ANY regulation of ANY firearm is communism. Had this woman been a responsible gun owner she would have realized that, having an unstable son with a history of sociopathic behavior among other problems...that perhaps...just maybe she should have had these guns locked up and secured.

There is the breakdown. There is the problem. And as is usual in life we all lose rights because of the stupidest among us. "Oh, I have a kid with emotional / behavioral problems. Think i'll just leave these guns where he can get to them.". Training. I keep repeating this - but in Virginia I can just walk into a Wal Mart and buy a gun. I can carry that gun around after "taking an online course". That's....batshit insane. I'm sorry. There is no way that we can have any rational comfort when this is the case. You know what the waiting period in Virginia is? You give the wal mart cashier your money. You wait two minutes for a "background check". You walk out of the store with your gun and ammo.

If we can't stop criminals from getting guns, at least we can stop stupid people from getting them. Yes I know that sounds elitist to some of you - but the irony here is that the same people who feel that acknowledging that a subset of gun owners are stupid equates to being elitist will turn around and talk about "stupid" liberals. "Labeling is bad...unless I am the one doing it". The reality is that we have stupid people of every ilk. We have stupid liberals...and we have some damn smart ones too. We have stupid conservatives, and then we have the George Wills of that ideology. We have smart, responsible gun owners and we have morons who pretend the gun is their Johnson and lack any awareness of cause and effect. No, these gun owners are not the ones that are necessarily doing the bad things...but they are the ones lying in their underwear on a bed with their guns casually strewn about...where little junior can find it and take it to school...and make the bullies pay.

I don't think we need laws about who can own a gun, I think we need laws about how you treat that gun. Where you store it. Who can access it. Kind of a no brainer.

IF YOUR GUN IS USED IN A CRIME AND YOU CANNOT PROVE THAT IT WAS PROPERLY SECURED....YOU SHARE IN THE CRIMINAL PENALTIES!

Irresponsibility. Lack of proper training. Loose regulations weakened further by a political agenda that does not understand that sometimes regulations are there for a reason.

Honestly - if you have a small weenie I have no problem with you buying an ar-15 to help out with that...AS LONG as you can keep it secured and be responsible with it.

As long as you are not this guy

Open in new window






Quote:
Prayers for the families of the victims.


Indeed. And prayer for us that we can stop viewing this as an all or nothing problem to be used for political advantage and look at it with a rational dialogue - and I'm directing that at both sides here.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 10:54 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 14518
Sane, rd, Zwaaa.....I agree and disagree with parts of each of your posts. I don't feel like getting into it, but...


I just want to clarify one thing again....




The difference between this:

Open in new window



and this:



Open in new window



is purely cosmetic.



Also....not a single rational person will claim armed teachers is the answer.


And, to think that a security officer would be carrying a revlover instead of a semi-auto is not being serious.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 11:42 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 14518
Quote:

zwaaa wrote:
What I do think is that when you have people snapping like this - you need to look at why they are snapping....





Bingo. Guns were much more readily available and carried by a wider group of people 30-50 years ago...these things either didn't happen or were EXTREMELY rare.

Kids and teachers used to take guns to school so they could go hunting on their way home....and it never occured to any of them to do something like this.

Quote:
The background checks are good and a longer wait won't make them better (in my opinion). Here are my new proposed rules:

1. Register guns like we do cars...no such thing as an ownerless gun
2. Lose a gun that is never found? Five year ban on buying new guns.
3. Lose a gun that is later used in a crime? No more guns for you...it is partially your fault.
4. Family/friend steals your gun and commits a crime? No more guns for you either.
5. Fail to report a lost/stolen gun? No more for you.

These are just off the top of my head...no deep thought involved. I feel it is a good conversation to have. There should be consequences for being careless with gun ownership.



I can go along with most of this....however some will say mandatory registration is the first step to disarmament.






Personally, I think the fact our society is moving away from guns IS part of the problem. When kids aren't raised to respect firearms, and never have taken life from an animal using one don't fully understand the consequence of what happens when you pull that trigger.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 11:57 am
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Gettin' Schmitty
Joined:
5/28/2008 9:04 pm
From Robertsdale,Al via parkersburg
Posts: 7000
TAX all assault weapons to where they`re so expensive they can`t be purchased.Those assault weapons already owned and registered get a special tax put on them.Every year you own one it has to be reported with the serial number on you tax returns...that way there not banned,people can still own them and we know who has them........let the bitching begin

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:22 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
WMITC
Joined:
1/6/2008 1:03 pm
From Here
Posts: 23547
Quote:

WVisHome wrote:
The difference between this:

Open in new window



and this:



Open in new window



is purely cosmetic.




Serious question from a non-gun owner.

How many rounds does the top rifle shoot without reloading? The bottom one?

That clip hanging down on the bottom gun looks a little more than cosmetic to me. Am I wrong?


* * *

Here's the absolute crux of my argument in real simple terms:


Doing nothing = won't help save lives.

Doing something = might save lives.



Might save lives > won't save lives.



How can anyone support doing nothing?

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:27 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
WMITC
Joined:
1/6/2008 1:03 pm
From Here
Posts: 23547
Sorry. Moved to post above.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:32 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis

Joined:
4/9/2008 12:11 pm
From Wilderness, VA via Hacker Valley, WV
Posts: 14518
Quote:

SaneJane wrote:
Quote:

WVisHome wrote:
The difference between this:

Open in new window



and this:



Open in new window



is purely cosmetic.




Serious question from a non-gun owner.

How many rounds does the top rifle shoot without reloading? The bottom one?

That clip hanging down on the bottom gun looks a little more than cosmetic to me. Am I wrong?



Sane, thank you for asking. I'm sorry if I come across as crass and insensitive...but it irritates me when people try to act like experts on something they don't fully understand.


The only difference is the capacity of the magazine.


You can get high capacity magazines for nearly every magazine-fed gun.



Don't know the specific model (I think it's a Ruger 10/22 though), but it's likely you can get at least a 30 round banana clip....or possibly even a 100 round drum for it.

Alternatively, you can replace the 30 round banana clip in the bottom rifle with a 5 or 10 round magazine that doesn't protrude at all from the gun.




Just as an example....the Ruger 10/22 is a .22LR caliber semi-automatic rifle. This rifle is the gun of choice for everyone from plinkers to serious competition shooters.

I believe it comes from the factory with either a 5 round or a 10 round clip.

Here's one with a 50 round drum....same exact gun, different magazine:

Open in new window





Quote:


Here's the absolute crux of my argument in real simple terms:


Doing nothing = won't help save lives.

Doing something = might save lives.



Might save lives > won't save lives.




I understand what you're saying and I completely agree.

The meat of the discussion is what is to be done.





Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:40 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
zwaaa wrote: "Had this woman been a responsible gun owner she would have realized that, having an unstable son with a history of sociopathic behavior among other problems...that perhaps...just maybe she should have had these guns locked up and secured."

Except of course when your nutjob son steals the key and shoots you in your sleep.

Hence my proposal that they be required to be kept by a storage facility and signed out only to owner while said punk kid still lives with you.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:51 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
WVisHome wrote: "Also....not a single rational person will claim armed teachers is the answer."

Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't make that up. :) Not only did some gun enthusiast spokespeople say it the past couple of days, we have discussed in the previous gun control thread.

A Texas congressman (Republican obviously) said yesterday he wishes the principal had an M4 in the office.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 12:56 pm
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Re: Yet another school massacre post-mortem analysis
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
WVisHome wrote: "And, to think that a security officer would be carrying a revlover instead of a semi-auto is not being serious."

So you want every school to not only have armed security walking around all day, but carrying assault weapons as well?

Yeah, I guess you could call that serious. No need to bring an assault weapon to school, all you have to do is overpower Rent-a-pig.

wow.

Posted on: 12/16/2012 1:02 pm
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